Talk:Agglutination

In Hungarian a word has usually 2500 forms. Therefore a Hungarian dictionary with all forms would contain 1 million * 2500 words, that is 2.5 GWords, approx 20 GBytes, that can not be handled by computers and handling it would make no sense.

Yes, hunspell handles that perfectly, it also handles vowel harmony.

What about Apertum to handle Hungarian? Muki987 10:56, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I've played about with hunmorph — one of its limitations iirc is that it cannot do generation, only analysis. My personal preference for handling languages like Hungarian and Finnish etc. is to use something like SFST (see also Omorfi). The problem of course is then to get someone to write the actual code. - Francis Tyers 12:21, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

In Hungarian there is simply too much to generate. Not sure with Finnish&Turkish&Basque&Persian, but they also have a lot. I give you an example:

Hello, there is not "simply too much to generate", there are languages much more agglutinative than Hungarian that have FST morphologies. For example see this paper. - Francis Tyers 07:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

• ház (house)
• házhoz to the ..
• háztól from the..
• házig up to..
• háznak of the..
• háznál at the
• házba into..
• házban in the...
• házból from the...
• házról about ...
• házra on top of the...
• házon on the ....
• házzá become a ...
• házat it (accusativ) - 14
• házam (my house - repeat all previous to this like:) -- 28
  • házamhoz ...

...

• • házamat ...
• házad (your house repeat all previous to this) -42
• háza (his, her, its house repeat all previous to this) - 56
• házunk (our house repeat all previous to this) -- 70
• házatok (your house repeat all previous to this) - 84
• házuk (their house repeat all previous to this) - 98
• házé (of the house repeat all previous to this) - 112
• házamé (of my house -repeat all previous to this) - 126

...

• házuké (of their house -repeat all previous to this) - 210
• házak (plural - repeat all previous for this up to here) 420

...

• házacska ( a little house - repeat all prevoius up to here) 840
• házikó ( a little house- repeat all prevoius, except last) 1260
• házas (married- repeat all previous for this up to here, except the last 2) 1680

...

• you can see, it is almost trivial to get thousands of words just without a grammar book for each substantive.

In my opinion if we get a word, házaitokétól, (which is not unusual) we need an analysis tool, that shows:

• házaitokétól (from something of your houses)
• this is from ház
• it is plural
• it suits to the prefix "from"
• it suits to "plural you"
• the houses own something
• the owned thing is singular (otherwise it would be házaitokéitól)

With this knowledge we can construct the English (or Spanish, German, etc...) form. Muki987 20:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

'With this knowledge we can construct the English' -- How? You don't seem to have given thought to that part.

'háza (his, her, its house repeat all previous to this) - 56' -- it strikes me as a) unlikely that you can chain all possible possessives in this manner and b) that you can do something useful that will convey an understandable meaning in another language even if it is.

'házas (married- repeat all previous for this up to here, except the last 2) 1680' -- a married house? Really?

'házacska' -- are there no lexicalised diminutives in Hungarian? I can theoretically add '-let' to any noun in English, but 'piglet' has a separate translation to most languages, and 'hamlet' is not a diminutive of 'ham'.

Just because you can theoretically infer meaning from an analysis doesn't mean that results will translate. -- Jimregan 05:24, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Comparison of Omorfi and Hunmorph

Omorfi

http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/cgi-bin/omor/omorfi-cgi-demo.py

Omorfi - Demo of Finnish Morphology

These demos are based on the HFST implementation of Finnish morphology using SFST , and Nykysuomen sanalista . A guesser is used for missing words. For more information see HFST home page Wordform Nykysuomen has no known analyses. The 6 best baseform and paradigm guesses were chosen:

*1. 	Nykysuomen 	32 noun 	sg nom
*2. 	Nykysuomi 	7 noun 	sg acc
*3. 	Nykysuomi 	7 noun 	sg gen
*4. 	Nykysuomi 	7 noun 	sg ins
*5. 	Nykysuomi 	25 noun 	sg acc
*6. 	Nykysuomi 	25 noun 	sg gen

As far as I can see here: http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/Omorfi

$ echo "kaikki ihmiset syntyvät vapaina ja tasavertaisina arvoltaan ja oikeuksiltaan." | fst-proc omorfi/src/omorfi.sfstc

^kaikki/kaikki<noun><7><a><sg><nom>$ ^ihmiset/ihminen<noun><38><pl><acc>/ihminen<noun><38><pl><nom>$ 
^syntyvät/syntyä<verb><52><j><act><pcpva><pl><acc>/syntyä<verb><52><j><act><pcpva><pl><nom>/syntyä<verb><52><j><act><indv><pres><pl3>$ 
^vapaina/vapaa<noun><17><pl><ess>$ 
^ja/*ja$ ^tasavertaisina/*tasavertaisina$ ^arvoltaan/arvo<noun><1><sg><abl><pl3>/arvo<noun><1><sg><abl><sg3>$ ^ja/*ja$ 
^oikeuksiltaan/oikeus<noun><40><pl><abl><pl3>/oikeus<noun><40><pl><abl><sg3>$.

Omorfi also analyses and that's it. I do not see any difference to hunmorph, do you? Muki987 21:24, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Hunmorph

$ echo "ablakot" | ocamorph --aff lexicons/morphdb.hu/out/morphdb_hu.aff --dic lexicons/morphdb.hu/out/morphdb_hu.dic

and you get

> ablakot ablak/NOUN> 

This is pretty much the same IMHO, what Omorfi produces. What so you think? Muki987 21:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

The difference is that in Omorfi, you can go the other way. From

^syntyä<verb><52><j><act><pcpva><pl><acc>$ → syntyvät

Can you do that in hunmorph? It was my understanding that you couldn't. - Francis Tyers 07:10, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Btw, if you want to look at an agglutinative language pair currently in SVN, check out Northern Sámi and Lule Sámi. - Francis Tyers 07:17, 7 April 2009 (UTC)