Talk:Welsh to English - Revision history

Francis Tyers: Reverted edits by Adamwalsh (Talk) to last revision by Francis Tyers

2010-07-10T18:14:48Z

Reverted edits by Adamwalsh (Talk) to last revision by Francis Tyers

Adamwalsh at 16:01, 10 July 2010

2010-07-10T16:01:03Z

Francis Tyers: /* Elided pr.poss after a vowel */

2008-07-29T14:35:12Z

Elided pr.poss after a vowel

Francis Tyers: /* Dictionary errors (refs to cy-en.dix and cy.dix) */

2008-07-24T13:39:30Z

Dictionary errors (refs to cy-en.dix and cy.dix)

Francis Tyers: /* Preverbal particles - interrogative */

2008-07-24T13:21:45Z

Preverbal particles - interrogative

Francis Tyers: /* Preverbal particles - interrogative */

2008-07-24T13:21:34Z

Preverbal particles - interrogative

Francis Tyers: /* Preverbal particles - affirmative */

2008-07-24T12:37:25Z

Preverbal particles - affirmative

Francis Tyers: /* Preverbal particles - affirmative */

2008-07-24T12:36:06Z

Preverbal particles - affirmative

Francis Tyers: /* Preverbal particles - negative */

2008-07-24T12:15:08Z

Preverbal particles - negative

Francis Tyers: /* Preverbal particles - negative */

2008-07-24T12:14:38Z

Preverbal particles - negative

@@ Line 822: / Line 822: @@
 :Mae Ymddiriedolaeth Caerdydd a'r Fro yn gwrthod dweud faint mae'r driniaeth yn costio, ond yn ôl papur newydd y Sun mae'r driniaeth cyffuriau yn costio £2,500 y mis.
 :Cardiff Trust and the Region Is refusing say size the treatment is costing , but according to the newspaper Sun the treatment is drugs costing £2,500 the month.
-:<span style="color: grey">"He is being Trust Cardiff I ' go group Land refusing say as many he ' is being group treatment costing , except according to [http://www.professays.com/ essay help] news the Sun he ' is being group treatment ingredients costing the month."</span> (InterTran)
+:<span style="color: grey">"He is being Trust Cardiff I ' go group Land refusing say as many he ' is being group treatment costing , except according to paper news the Sun he ' is being group treatment ingredients costing the month."</span> (InterTran)
 :Ond byddwn ni'n parhau i weithio gyda'n staff, gwirfoddolwyr, cystadleuwyr, cwsmeriaid, partneriaid, a chyrff eraill i wella ein gwasanaeth Cymraeg.

@@ Line 822: / Line 822: @@
 :Mae Ymddiriedolaeth Caerdydd a'r Fro yn gwrthod dweud faint mae'r driniaeth yn costio, ond yn ôl papur newydd y Sun mae'r driniaeth cyffuriau yn costio £2,500 y mis.
 :Cardiff Trust and the Region Is refusing say size the treatment is costing , but according to the newspaper Sun the treatment is drugs costing £2,500 the month.
-:<span style="color: grey">"He is being Trust Cardiff I ' go group Land refusing say as many he ' is being group treatment costing , except according to paper news the Sun he ' is being group treatment ingredients costing the month."</span> (InterTran)
+:<span style="color: grey">"He is being Trust Cardiff I ' go group Land refusing say as many he ' is being group treatment costing , except according to [http://www.professays.com/ essay help] news the Sun he ' is being group treatment ingredients costing the month."</span> (InterTran)
 :Ond byddwn ni'n parhau i weithio gyda'n staff, gwirfoddolwyr, cystadleuwyr, cwsmeriaid, partneriaid, a chyrff eraill i wella ein gwasanaeth Cymraeg.

@@ Line 732: / Line 732: @@
-===Elided pr.poss after a vowel===
-; neidiodd Cwchwlin ar ei draed a'i wyneb yn fwgwd o waed, ac â'i gleddyf torrodd bob un o'r pennau sgrechlyd aflafar oddiar eu hysgwyddau
-; -> *Jumped *Cwchwlin on his #feet<n><sg> and his face in mask of blood, and with'to *gleddyf broke each one of the heads *sgrechlyd *aflafar *oddi on their *hysgwyddau
-; Cwchwlin jumped to his feet, his face a mask of blood, and with his sword cut each one of the shrieking, harsh heads from their shoulders. (Cwchwlin p110.  Apologies to those of a nervous disposition!)
-The key point here is "â'i" (we'll use a noun that is actually in the dix)
-; *â ei car -> *with his car
-; â ei gar -> with his car - with his car
-; â ei char -> *with his car - with her car
-; *â'i car -> With his car
-; â'i gar -> With his car - with his car
-; â'i char -> *With his car - with her car
-Elided versions of the pr.poss are not being picked up, and no attention is being paid to the mutation of the following noun even with the non-elided pr.poss.
-I'm not sure whether the elided (sometimes called infixed) pr.poss, which occur after vowels, should be entered separately in the dix, or handled with rules.
-{{comment|At the moment I'm handling them in the dictionary, making ad-hoc additions to the "postblank" section (right at the bottom of the file) as I go along. - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}
-; 1p.sing - 'm
-fy mrawd a'm chwaer (my brother and sister) - see below
-; 2p.sing - 'th + SM
-gyda'th dad (with your dad) - see below
-; 3p.sing.m - 'w + SM after "i", 'i + SM elsewhere
-i'w dŷ (to his house), ei fam a'i dad (his mother and father), gyda'i arian (with his money)
-; 3p.sing.f - 'w + {AM, h before a vowel} after "i", 'i + {AM, h before a vowel} elsewhere
-i'w thŷ (to her house), ei mam a'i thad (her mother and father), gyda'i harian (with her money)
-; 1p.pl - 'n + h before a vowel
-o'n gwlad (from our country)
-; 2p.pl - 'ch
-cario'ch pethau (to carry your things)
-; 3p.pl -  'w after "i", 'u + h before a vowel elsewhere
-i'w tŷ (to their house), ei fam a'i dad (his mother and father), gyda'u harian (with their money)
-Note that this will deal with "ar eu hysgwyddau -> on their *hysgwyddau" in the sentence above.  This works fine at present if we drop the h-mutation: "ar eu ysgwyddau -> on their shoulders".
-Although these elided forms can be used after verbs etc, they are most likely after prepositions.  All except 1p.sing and 2p.sing are used after any vowel, but these two ('m, 'th) can only be used after:
-* a (and)
-* â (with)
-* gyda (with)
-* efo (with)
-* tua (towards)
-* na (than, nor)
-* i (to)
-* o (from)
-There are also forms that are used when the pronoun is a direct object.  In most cases, these are the same as the above, but in 3p we have 's instead of 'w.  There are also slight mutation changes.  These forms are typical of old-fashioned written Welsh, so perhaps we could ignore them for now.
-As regards rules:
- For Welsh pattern "vowel_!i + 'i + {SM_noun, SM_infin}"
- output "his {noun, infin}"
- For Welsh pattern "vowel_i + 'w + {SM_noun, SM_infin}"
- output "his {noun, infin}"
- For Welsh pattern "vowel_!i + 'i + {AMH_noun, AMH_infin}"
- output "her {noun, infin}"
- For Welsh pattern "vowel_i + 'w + {AMH_noun, AMH_infin}"
- output "her {noun, infin}"
- For Welsh pattern "vowel_!i + 'u + {AMH_noun, AMH_infin}"
- output "their {noun, infin}"
- For Welsh pattern "vowel_i + 'w + {AMH_noun, AMH_infin}"
- output "their {noun, infin}"
- For Welsh pattern "vowel + 'ch + {noun, infin}"
- output "your {noun, infin}"
- For Welsh pattern "vowel + 'n + {noun, infin}"
- output "our {noun, infin}"
-This will clash with cases where "yn" becomes "'n" - you can implement it, or leave it for now.
- For Welsh pattern "{a, â, gyda, efo, tua, na, i, o} + 'm + {noun, infin}"
- output "my {noun, infin}"
- For Welsh pattern "{a, â, gyda, efo, tua, na, i, o} + 'm + {SM_noun, SM_infin}"
- output "your {noun, infin}"
-Other issues:
-"oddi ar" (from on - the opposite of "ar", using the ar paradigm) is not in the dix, although "oddi wrth" (from - the opposite of "at", using the wrth paradigm) is.
-I'm not sure why "ar ei draed" (onto his feet) stumbles (if you'll pardon the pun).
-{{comment|We didn't have "feet" in the English dictionary, only foot sg/pl. I made an entry in the bidix that maps 'traed' → foot(pl), and now it seems to work. - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}
 ===Preverbal particles - negative===

@@ Line 502: / Line 502: @@
 This also applies to phrases like "y rhai lleiaf oll" above.  We need to convert "oll" first on the basis that is follows an adj, and then we need to convert "rhai" on the basis that it precedes an adj.
-===Dictionary errors (refs to cy-en.dix and cy.dix)===
-"hefyd" (152) is correctly listed as "also", but is wrongly coming up as "then".
-{{comment|::Should be fixed - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}
-"da" (5318), is correctly listed as "good", but is coming up as unknown.
-{{comment|::Where is it coming up as unknown? - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}
-{{comment|:::In :"mae'r bachgen yn licio'r eneth sy'n dda".  But that is now coming up OK as well. - [[User:Donnek|Donnek]]}}
-<pre>
-    <pardef n="anghydwel/d__vblex">
-    <e lm="anghydweld"><i>anghydwel</i><par n="anghydwel/d__vblex"/></e>
-    <e lm="cyfweld"><par n="initial-c"/><i>yfwel</i><par n="anghydwel/d__vblex"/></e>
-    <e lm="gweld"><par n="initial-g"/><i>wel</i><par n="anghydwel/d__vblex"/></e>
-    <e lm="rhagweld"><par n="initial-rh"/><i>agwel</i><par n="anghydwel/d__vblex"/></e>
-    <e lm="ymweld"><i>ymwel</i><par n="anghydwel/d__vblex"/></e>
-</pre>
-This paradigm appears to be broken in that some of the <r> sides are of different lengths (they should all be 'd' if /d and 'eld' if /eld) - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]
-{{comment|::I'm missing something, sorry.  To me they are all segmented /d. - [[User:Donnek|Donnek]]
-}}
-{{comment|
-:::See for example the entries in the paradigm [http://www.nopaste.com/p/as3si2tMT here]. - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}

@@ Line 901: / Line 901: @@
 {{comment|::I've added the particle, "ni" and "nid", written a couple of disambiguation rules and done a basic rule which just puts "not" after the verb. This doesn't work in most cases, but does seem to work nicely with "to be" &mdash; "nid yw fe yn dref" → "he is not in town". This ruleset is likely to be extremely fragile. - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}
-===Preverbal particles - interrogative===
- For Welsh pattern "a + SM_verb.inflected + subject"
- output English "auxiliary + subject + verb"
-Again, I assume that Apertium can deal with the technicalities of producing the proper English verbform (he went - did he go?; they see - do they see?; etc).
-Note that "a" is often omitted, especially in spoken Welsh, but the soft mutation remains:
-; a gyrhaeddodd y llythyr? -> *And the letter arrived? - Did the letter arrive?
-; gyrhaeddodd y llythyr? -> *The letter arrived? - Did the letter arrive?
-Introducing subordinate clauses, "a" means "if, whether":
- For Welsh pattern "!noun + a + SM_verb.inflected + subject"
- output English "!noun + if + subject + verb"
-; ewch i ofyn a fyddai hi'n dod - *Go I ask and she would be coming - go and ask if she will be coming
-Note that we still have the frustrating issue of the tagger choosing the wrong "i" (see: http://wiki.apertium.org/wiki/Welsh_to_English#.22i.22_as_preposition).
-{{comment|::Ok, after a morning of furious hacking, I've fixed the problem in the constraint grammar parser I was using with Apertium. Now this should be selected properly. You can see the file [http://apertium.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/apertium/trunk/apertium-cy-en/apertium-cy-en.cy-en.rlx here]... you might find it interesting, not least because it doesn't require messing about with any XML! :) If you fancy writing rules in that formalism (to improve tagger performance), I can include them directly. I've sent you an email with an example CG for faroese that you might find interesting. - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}
-{{comment|:::That's good news.  I'll do a bit of reading on CG, which looks promising, since it is largely bracketless! - [[User:Donnek|Donnek]]}}
-"oni" (with mixed mutation) is used when a positive answer is expected:
- For Welsh pattern "oni+ MM_verb.inflected + subject"
- output English "auxiliary + not + subject + verb"
-; oni phrynodd yr athro'r papur? -> **oni The teacher bought the paper? - didn't the teacher buy the paper?
-"oni" becomes "onid" before a vowel, but not before a vowel "exposed" by the soft mutation of a "g":
-; onid aeth y bws heibio'r ysgol? -> **onid The bus went #past<pr>the school? - didn't the bus go past the school?
-; oni welsoch chi? -> **oni Dog saw? - didn't you see?
-LOL!  Subject pronouns really need to be slapped into shape!  That is a very existentialist translation, especially if you add "b" at the beginning.
-{{comment|This seems to be largely done. - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}
 ==="to be" in conditional subjunctive===

@@ Line 940: / Line 940: @@
 LOL!  Subject pronouns really need to be slapped into shape!  That is a very existentialist translation, especially if you add "b" at the beginning.
-===Preverbal particles - affirmative===
- For Welsh pattern "{fe, mi} + SM_verb.inflected + subject"
- output English "subject + verb"
-"fe " is mainly southern, and "mi" is mainly northern.  "fe" is the form usually used before impersonals (fe werthwyd y fferm -> *He the farm sold - the farm was sold).
-There is another affirmative particle "y[r]" used before "bod":
-; yr ydych yn mynd -> *The are going - you are going
-but that is only seen now in older written Welsh.  The elided forms (eg "rydych") are already included in the "bod" paradigm, but to handle older Welsh, where "yr" is not elided, you could also have a rule:
- For Welsh pattern "y[r] + VBSER.inflected + subject"
- output English "subject + VBSER"
-Incidentally, we get some oddities for variants of the fragment above, all of which mean "you are going":
-; yr ydych yn mynd -> *The are going
-There is no attempt to mark the verb as 2p.pl.
-; yr ydych chi yn mynd -> *The dog are going
-That dog is back again!  "chi" meaning "dog" would never occur in this location, because there is nothing that could give it AM.
-{{comment|
-::I think it's [http://www.sanfalibero.it/imm/Muttley2.jpg this one]...
-:::I made a rule: REMOVE N IF (-1 V) (0 N) (0 PrnSubj) (1 Pr);
-::It fixes that problem, but maybe it will cause others...
-::- [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}
-{{comment|:::LOL - catch the pigeon!  If I interpret that rule correctly, it says "if a cohort contains a noun and a pr.subj, with a verb on the immediate left and a preposition on the immediate right, delete the noun"?  (I see you've added quite a few rules since yesterday.)  I think this should work OK, actually, but what I'm slightly nervous about is that we seem to be ignoring relevant data in the stream itself, namely (a) a 2p.pl verb is likely to be followed by a 2p.pl pr, and (b) an AM noun would only occur in an AM context, of which this is not one.  Capturing (a) especially seems important - I know the constraint grammar (ch 11) did mention weighting choices by probability.  I need to be more familiar with the CG syntax, and the Faroese file takes a lot of concentration!  Talking of which, could you maybe do a comment below each of your Welsh rules as you do them, giving a Welsh example of what the rule acts on?  This would make it easier to review them later. - [[User:Donnek|Donnek]]}}
-{{comment|::::Yep, at the moment I'm just writing them as hacks. Hoping that as I add rules they'll become more clear and I'll be able to unify some. The probability stuff is for accepting prob info from an HMM tagger before (not generating it itself)... And, I'll go through and document the rules later this evening. Also, I can pass you a CG for Norwegian which uses more basic rules (but more). - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}
-; yr ydych chi'n mynd -> *The you are going
-This is the closest translation.
-; rydych chi yn mynd -> *Dog rust going
-I think that's the name of a 70s album by Genesis ....
-{{comment|::LOL!! :DD - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}
-; rydych chi'n mynd -> *You rust going
-I may do, but that is none of Apertium's business ....
-The above two are because cg-proc thinks "rydych" is a form of "rhydu (to rust)" instead of "bod".
-{{comment|::This isn't cg-proc, its the apertium-tagger. Is there a rule I can try for disambiguating vblex.pres from vblex.prs? E.g. could the construction vblex.prs + prpers + yn + vblex.inf ever occur? - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}
-{{comment|:::Although it could in theory,  in practice it would be extremely unlikely.  The subjunctive is more or less moribund now, except in stock phrases such as "doed a ddelo" (come what may), and in older written (and perhaps spoken) usage.  The most common remnant is, unsurprisingly, for "bod", in the person of "bo" (3p.sing) (although other persons appear occasionally), and even then it could be argued that these are stock phrases, eg "pan fo angen" (as needed).  I think that in the meantime, therefore, your rule would be OK.  I also wonder about going farther, and automatically deleting vblex.prs from a cohort?  This would not do in the longer run, but would cause few problems for 0.1.  Phrases containing "bo" could be added to the multiword phrase section. - [[User:Donnek|Donnek]]}}
-The conclusion seems to be (apart from the "rhydu" problem) that the absence or non-elision of pr.subj can cause problems.
-{{comment|This section now seems to be dealt with. - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}
 ==="to be" in conditional subjunctive===

@@ Line 899: / Line 899: @@
 The "ni" particle is typical of formal or written Welsh.  Spoken or informal Welsh tends to use "ddim" after the verb.  But we can leave that till later.
-{{comment|I've added the particle, "ni" and "nid", written a couple of disambiguation rules and done a basic rule which just puts "not" after the verb. This doesn't work in most cases, but does seem to work nicely with "to be" &mdash; "nid yw fe yn dref" → "he is not in town" - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}
+{{comment|::I've added the particle, "ni" and "nid", written a couple of disambiguation rules and done a basic rule which just puts "not" after the verb. This doesn't work in most cases, but does seem to work nicely with "to be" &mdash; "nid yw fe yn dref" → "he is not in town". This ruleset is likely to be extremely fragile. - [[User:Francis Tyers|Francis Tyers]]}}
 ===Preverbal particles - interrogative===